More Discussions for this daf
1. Running up to the 4 Amos on top of the ramp to the Mizbe'ach 2. The Kevesh and the Mizbe'ach 3. The Qualities of a King
4. The Race to the Top Four Amos 5. King David's sins 6. Payis instituted after the incident
7. Amah Yesod 8. Running up the Ramp 9. typo?
10. Asur Limnos Es Yisrael 11. Counting Jews 12. King David's sins
13. תלמיד חכם בנקמה ונטירה 14. Asur Limnos Es Yisrael
DAF DISCUSSIONS - YOMA 22

Stan asked:

how did the Cohanim run up the ramp when there is a mitzva lo taale bmadregot al mizbachi asher lo tgale ervatcha alav? when a person runs he is mgale erav just as much as when he walks up steps?

Stan, Beit Shemesh

The Kollel replies:

Both the Tosfos Yeshanim and the Tosfos ha'Rosh offer the two answers to your question (though they base it on a Yerushalmi in Berachos).

(1) That it is only when actually performing a Mitzvah that running up the ramp is forbidden, but not in this case, where the Kohanim are only preparing for a Mitzvah.

(2) That the Mishnah is not referring to running in the conventional manner, but to running as fast as one can, using goose-steps.

Initially, I intended to dismiss the question on the grounds that here, where the whole 'Avodah' is to run, that is the Mitzvah so to speak, and is perfectly permitted (all the more so as the entire Avodah of the Kohanim evolves around Zerizus (serving Hash-m with alacrity).

The Gevuras Ari gives a similar answer. He writes that, whereas running under normal circumstances is considered lacking in Yir'as Shamayim, that is not the case here, since they are running in order to perform the Mitzvah of Terumas ha'Deshen. In other words, it is only forbidden to run if the Kohen stands to gain nothing (Mitzvah-wise) by doing so.

be'Virchas Kol Tuv.

Eliezer Chrysler

Mordechai Goldstein asked:

I read this with interest, but isn't the ysod of not spreading your legs on the ramp, not to be magaleh ervah so all these reasons below seem null and void?

The Kollel replies:

Although I agree with you that the first answer does not seem to solve the problem, seeing as it is nevertheless an effrontery to the Mizbe'ach to reveal oneself in this way, so what difference does it make whether one is performing the Mitzvah or preparing for it?

I do not see, however, what problem you have with the second answer. Surely, someone who runs using goose-steps will not part his legs in the way that he will when climbing up steps. And even if he does, the very fact that the Kohanim used goose-steps demonstrates their sensitivity to the sanctity of the Mizbe'ach, and is therefore an act of Tzni'us per se.

The subsequent comments can easily be understood in light of the fact that, in reality, even someone who climbs up steps, does not really reveal his body, and that the Torah is merely demanding here a higher level of modesty to conform with the sanctity of the Mizbe'ach.

That being the case, it only applies to a case where there is nothing to be gained by taking large steps; where there is, then the Mitzvah that one gains outweighs the restriction that is not really a lack of Tzni'us in the first place.

I would add to the answer of the Gevuras Ari the fact that Chazal do not refer to the prohibition as running, but as climbing up steps. There is nothing to be gained in climbing steps, so in deference to the Kedushah of the Mizbe'ach, one should rather ascend via a ramp. Running, on the other hand, for the purpose of gaining the right to the Avodah, was a necessary act of Zerizus, and was therefore permitted, as the Gevuras Ari explains.

Be'Virchas Kol Tuv

Eliezer Chrysler

Mordechai Goldstein commented:

1) Oh..............I didn't understand what goosesteps were. I was imagining a goose running which to me would look like very large awkward leaps..................

2) Regarding "The subsequent comments can easily be understood in light of the fact that, in reality, even someone who climbs up steps, does not really reveal his body,"

That doesn't seem true to me.............A Kohen in his begadim walking up steps would be megaleh ervah that's the ysod of not being mevazah the mizbeach

3) Regarding "and that the Torah is merely demanding here a higher level of modesty to conform with the sanctity of the Mizbe'ach."

I disagree, that's not what's spoken out in the Gemara, what's spoken out is spreading ones legs is a bizayon for a physically specific reason: megaleh ervah

Kol Tuv,

Mordechai Goldstein

The Kollel replies:

1) Goose-steps (not running) are short steps, when one walks heel to toe.

2) Although on the one hand you are right, in the sense that the Mizbe'ach sees (so to speak), on the other hand it does not, since the Kohen wore knee-pants (which I forgot to add in my answer). So my contention that there is no Giluy Ervah is correct.

3) You assume that spreading one's legs is in itself, Giluy Ervah. Not really. Yes if you look at it from the perspective of a higher level of modesty, but not in real terms, as I suggested - and certainly not in conjunction with the previous point that I made.

In any case, the most one could say is that taking large steps in this way is as if one was being Megaleh Ervah, but to suggest that it is Megaleh Ervah, that's stretching it too far.

Be'Virchas Kol Tuv

Eliezer Chrysler