POINT BY POINT OUTLINE
prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
1) DO 'NOCHRIM' ACQUIRE THROUGH "MESHICHAH?" (cont.)
(a) Objection: (the Seifa of R. Chiya bar Aba's teaching): If another Nochri stole it from the first, he is (also) killed.
1. We understand that the first is killed for paining a Yisrael. Why is the second killed?
(b) Conclusion: We must say that a Nochri acquires through Meshichah. (Note - normally, we do not challenge one Amora from another, for they may argue with each other. Here we challenge and refute Rav Ashi from R. Chiya bar Aba! Perhaps this is because Rav Ashi derived his law from Rav, and R. Chiya cited R. Yochanan, and the Halachah follows R. Yochanan against Rav - PF.)
(a) Reuven told Shimon 'if I sell this land, it will be to you.' Shimon made a Kinyan Chalipin. Reuven sold it to Levi.
(b) (Rav Yosef): Shimon acquires it.
(c) Objection (Abaye): He was not Posek!
1. Question: What is the source that one does not acquire before Pesikah?
2. Answer (Mishnah): If a Yisrael sells wine to a Nochri:
i. If he Pasak before he measured out the wine, the money is permitted;
ii. If he measured out the wine before he was Posek, the money is forbidden.
(d) Question: What was the conclusion?
1. Objection: The Mishnah proves that the Halachah follows Abaye!
2. Answer: Perhaps normally, one can acquire before Pesikah. It is a stringency of Yayin Nesech to say that he does not acquire.
(e) Answer (Rav Idi bar Avin): A case occurred in which Rav Huna ruled based on the following Beraisa:
1. (Beraisa): If Reuven's donkey-drivers or workers were carrying Peros, and Shimon (who wants to buy) took them into his house, if they were Posek or measured the Peros (but not both), either party can retract. (Taking workers into one's house (while they are laden with the Peros) is not Meshichah. Both Meshichah and Pesikah are needed.)
2. If Reuven or Shimon unloaded it and brought it into Shimon's house:
i. If they were Posek even without measuring, neither party can retract (unloading counts like Meshichah);
ii. If they measured but were not Posek, either party can retract.
(f) Yehudah told David 'if I sell this land, it will be to you, for 100 Zuz'; David made a Kinyan. Yehudah sold it to Moshe for 120.
(g) (Rav Kahana): David acquires it.
(h) Objection (R. Yakov of Nehar Pekod): Yehudah meant that if I choose to sell it for the proper price;
1. Surely, he sold it for a higher price because he was under (financial) duress!
(i) The Halachah follows R. Yakov.
(j) If Reuven said 'I sell this land to you, (and the price will be) like three people estimate it', if two of the three agree, that is the price. (Since he insisted on three, and mentioned estimating, he intends that they should be like Beis Din);
(k) If he said 'like three people will say', all three must agree on the price.
(l) If he said 'like four people estimate it', all four people must agree (since he insisted on four, he does not intend for a Beis Din. He wants many opinions), and all the more so if he said 'like four people will say.'
(m) (Rav Papa): If Reuven said 'like three people estimate it', and three estimated it, Shimon (the buyer) can insist on getting three different people who know the price better.
(n) Objection (Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua): Why can he do so? Perhaps the first three know the price better!
(o) The Halachah follows Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua.
3) WINE POURED INTO A 'NOCHRI'S' FLASK
(a) (Mishnah): If a Yisrael took a funnel and measured wine into a Nochri's flask, and then measured into a Yisrael's:
1. If a drop of wine could remain in the funnel (there is a place it could get caught), the wine in the Yisrael's flask is forbidden;
(b) If one pours from one Keli into another, the wine left in the top Keli is permitted, and that in the bottom Keli is forbidden.
(c) (Gemara - Mishnah): Nitzok (a stream of water falling through the air), Ketarfes (water flowing down an incline), or Tofe'ach (something wet enough to wet a hand that touches it) is not considered touching, neither Letamei (e.g. if the bottom is Tamei and the top is Tahor) or Letaher (Rashi - to join them to make a Mikveh; Ramban - to be Metaher water by touching it to a Mikveh);
1. Ashboren (a collection of water) is considered connected Letamei and Letaher.
(d) (Rav Huna): Nitzok, Ketarfes and Tofe'ach are connections regarding Yayin Nesech (it is as if the Nochri also touched the top liquid).
(e) Objection (Rav Nachman): What is your source?
1. Suggestion: You infer from the Mishnah. Nitzok, Ketarfes and Tofe'ach are not connections for Tum'ah and Taharah, but they are regarding Yayin Nesech.
2. Rejection (Seifa): Ashboren is considered connected Letamei and Letaher.
i. You should likewise infer that it is not connected regarding Yayin Nesech (but this is unreasonable)!
(f) Conclusion: You cannot infer your law from the Mishnah.
(g) Support (for Rav Huna - Mishnah): If a Yisrael took a funnel and measured wine into a Nochri's flask, and then measured into a Yisrael's:
1. If there is a place for a drop of wine to remain in the funnel, the wine in the Yisrael's flask is forbidden.
2. Suggestion: The drop is forbidden due to Nitzok (when pouring into the Nochri's Keli (which probably was not clean), a flow of wine connected the funnel to drops of Yayin Nesech remaining at the bottom). This shows that Nitzok is a connection regarding Yayin Nesech!
(h) Rejection: R. Chiya taught a Beraisa that says that the case is that the wine in the flask reached the bottom of the funnel.
(i) Inference: The Beraisa says so because Nitzok is not a connection!
(j) Rejection: No. The Tana established it this way because he was sure that if the wine reached the bottom of the funnel, this would forbid the residue;
1. He was not sure whether Nitzok is a connection.
(k) Support (for Rav Huna - Mishnah): If one pours from one Keli into another, the wine left in the top Keli is permitted.
1. Inference: The wine in midair is forbidden, because Nitzok connects it (to Yayin Nesech in the bottom Keli).
(l) Objection: If so, also the wine in the top Keli should be forbidden!
(m) Answer: No. The case is, he interrupted the flow (so there was never a stream connecting the two Kelim).
1. The inference remains. The wine in midair is forbidden, because Nitzok connects it (to Yayin Nesech in the bottom Keli).
(n) Question (Seifa): The bottom Keli is forbidden.
1. Inference: The wine in midair is permitted, i.e. Nitzok is not a connection!
(o) Conclusion: The inferences contradict one another. We cannot determine which is correct. The Mishnah neither supports nor refutes Rav Huna.
(p) Support (for Rav Huna - Beraisa): If one pours a barrel of wine into a pit (of wine), all the wine outside the barrel (i.e. the wine in midair) is forbidden.
(q) Rejection (Rav Sheshes): (It is not forbidden because it is connected to Yayin Nesech in the pit. Rather,) the case is, a Nochri pours. This forbids it. (We can also establish the Seifa of our Mishnah (if one pours from one Keli into another, the top Keli is permitted, and the bottom Keli is forbidden) in this way.)
(r) Question: If so, even the wine in the barrel should be forbidden!
(s) Answer: A Nochri's Ko'ach (if he moves wine without touching it) is forbidden mid'Rabanan;
1. Chachamim decreed only about the wine that left the barrel.
4) CONCERN ABOUT 'NOCHRIM' WHO CONTACTED WINE
(a) Rav Chisda (to wine sellers): When you pour wine into a Nochri's Keli, interrupt the flow, or throw the wine from afar (so a stream will never connect your Keli to his)
(b) Rava (to people who pour wine): Do not allow Nochrim to help you, lest you let go and he will pour alone, and his Ko'ach will forbid the wine.
(c) A man was siphoning wine from a barrel using two connected reeds (in a bent shape. After sucking the wine so it begins to flow, all the wine will flow out by itself). A Nochri put his hand on the bottom, stopping the flow; Rava forbade all the wine, even what remained in the barrel.
(d) Rav Papa: Do you forbid (Ramban - even benefit from the wine) due to Nitzok?
(e) Rejection: No. This is unlike regular Nitzok. All the wine would have flowed out of the reeds, so they are like an extension of the barrel.
(f) (Mar Zutra brei d'Rav Nachman): One may drink from Kenishkenin (a Keli with pipes exuding for people to drink from it) at the same time as a Nochri. (Even though wine that touches the Nochri's lips is forbidden, Nitzok (R. Tam; Ra'avad - of this kind, where the Yisrael drinks wine from a separate pipe) is not a connection.)
1. This is provided that the Yisrael stops drinking first. Once the Nochri stops, it is forbidden (the forbidden wine returns to the Keli and mixes with all the wine).
(g) Version #1: Rabah bar Rav Huna permitted the Reish Galusa (the executive head of Yisrael in exile) to drink from Kenishkenin (at the same time as a Nochri; R. Chananel - with a Yisrael. It is not forbidden due to mourning over the Churban. However, one may not drink with a Nochri, either because Nitzok is a connection, or lest the Nochri stop drinking first)).
(h) Version #2: Rabah bar Rav Huna himself drank from Kenishkenin.